Commentary on 40k, fantasy, tactics, Army Lists, Missions, and much more...in a run on sentence based flow of thought
Feast of Blades '13
Commentary on 40k, fantasy, tactics, Army Lists, Missions, and much more...in a run on sentence based flow of thought
Unfortunately you shrike tactic is against the rules. Reread page 48 for independent characters. A character only joins or leaves a squad at the end of the movement phase by ending more than 2 inches away. It is not possible to leave a squad and join back with the same squad in one turn, because in fact he has never left it. While he is with the squad he follows the rule, "The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together." So Shrike could only move 6 inches. It was a creative thought but unfortunately not allowed. Of course the easy way to do this is to infiltrate Shrike with a unit that has jump packs, like assault marines or Vanguard Vets. Jump packs can get the first turn charge.
ReplyDeleteAgain not to be mean, but your gate if infinity tactic would have to wait till turn 2. On page 67 of the marine codex where it defines a locator beacon the last sentence says, "Note that the locator beacon must already be on the table at the start of the turn for it to be used." SO you can't use it on the turn the Drop Pod arrives by Deep Strike because it was not on the table at the start of the turn. Again there is an easy fix to this strategy my changing units. Take a scout biker squad with a locator beacon. Deploy the bikes and then use your scout move to move them to 12 inches away from the enemy. At the beginning of your movement phase Gate of Infinity happens, so now they Deep Strike 6 inches in front of the bikes and within 6 inches of the enemy. The bikes can now also move up 12 and be right on top of the enemy (they can even assault). So if you take Shrike with an Assault Squad, A scout Bike squad with Locator Beacon, A Librarian with Gate of Infinity, and a Squad of Assault terminators, you can easily have a first turn assault with Shrike, the assault squad, and the bikes, with a Librarian and Terminators 6 inches away to back them up and charge on turn 2.
Deletehmmm its actually contentious witht he shrike part Yet I do say if you declare you are moving him away from the unit and move him 8 inches that would be a legal move yet if you move the terminators back into coherency range he is forced to rejoin the unit. Its as if you tried to move an independant character in terrain away from a unit but rolled too low for him to move totally away. So it actually depends on your enterpritation of the rule since technically I am not wrong by saying shrike is leaving the unit to jump forward 8 inches and then gets stuck back in the unit since at the end of the movement phase he is still in coherency yet ill check with some more players to be certain.....and yes I just notcied that bit on the drop pod I need to relay this to the local store as no one has noticed that before.....its almost contentious enough that I wouldnt try to use the beacon anyway but will probably keep it on since I would drop pod in a unit of veterans anyway (in case my opponent reserves his army so I would probably not jump till turn 2 anyway) thanks for the response as I want this as vetted as possible
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I gotta say I don't think this one is kosher dude. The movement rules for IC's all govern an IC joining or leaving a unit; there are no provisions for a unit moving into coherency with an IC which has already moved (let alone left that same unit) and thereby 'forcing' it into the unit. Joining or leaving units is something only IC's can do, not something regular squads can do to IC's. Either Shrike would leave the unit and stay out, or not leave it in the first place (in which case the squad can only move 6"). He couldn't even jump into a combat by himself and use the Defenders React move to 'pull' the target squad into range of the termies, since all assaults are declared/assault moves made before the defenders react. Very innovative, but ultimately illegal haha.
ReplyDeleteHey,
ReplyDeleteSo this is a very sticky situation in the rules. Begin by saying first:
The reason why this conundrum comes up is because the rules which govern how an IC joins and leaves a squad simply are not sufficient to cover the mechanics of the game. Period. You'll end up arguing in circles, endlessly, on this issue if you try to prove this RaW, because the rules you need to write a proof simply aren't there.
The cause of this issue is that the Rules do not state when an IC actually counts as having left a squad. There are a lot of IMPLICATIONS, but nothing concrete.
I can say that the majority of people I know do play (including myself) that an IC can not willingly leave a squad just to rejoin it in the same turn in order to get extra movement for the IC be it via a Jump Pack, Move Through Cover, Bike, whatever. The reason why though is not some sort of "holier than thou" rules reading or logic proof, it's because I know it's contentious and thus avoid the problem. I'm a tournament player at heart so know that if I practice using this technique that might get shut down at a tournament by a judge... well... no reason to practice with it.
Again, that's just the way I see it played as the rules which govern this notion are not 100% because they don't exist. So, basically, it's a house rule. Likewise, the Shrike tactic you are listing here be allowed in a game would also be a house rule.
Here's the list of IMPLICATIONS and you can decide for yourself then the legality of the issue.
Point #1)
There are no rules which tell you when an IC has actually "left" a squad. The rules DO state that an IC may attempt to move away from the Squad and the Squad may attempt to move away. These are allowances or attempts, though, not declarations of actually leaving the squad (which don't exist)
Implication #1)
The rules DO state that an IC joins a squad at the end of the movement phase by being within coherency.
The implication here then can be read that an IC therefore actually leaves the squad at the end of the movement phase as well when he is no longer within coherency.
The reason for this implication is that it is the opposite of the rules we actually do have. Rather the logical "NOT" being applied to an existing rule.
It's an implication and not rules fact because although reasonable, applying the logical "NOT" in this case is not explicitly allowed.
Implication #2)
If an IC uses his movement to move a distance greater than a Squad that he was a part of only to rejoin the same squad at the end of the movement phase, this seems to violate the rule about all members of a squad having to move at the slowest speed.
This argument becomes more pronounced if you believe in Implication #1.
Implication #3)
If you DO NOT allow my IC to move at his distance and then rejoin, you appear to be violating the rules which allow me to move my IC away from my Squad and the Squad likewise (see Implication 3). Furthermore, the only reference to an IC leaving a squad is "moving away" from it. The !time! at which he counts as left is the only unclear part. So, he moved away, thus leaving by the rules we do have, and then rejoins.
Thus it would seem that this rule implies you can leave and rejoin.
Implication #2 and Implication #3 create an unresolvable paradox.
The bottom line for me is that the answer is unclear, and there is no resolution to this problem.
It is for that reason and that reason only that I do not use this tactic because it could be shut down at the whim of a judge.
Thanks for the input Neil. After reading the IC rules again and again I would have to state that I wouldn't try this because of the fact that it is contentious, not that the general idea of the list (infiltrate shrike and 10 terminators and gate forward another 10) does not work.It does and I will do that part of the tactic anyway. I would almost have to say that in any case of the IC moving away from the unit, since it is still moving with the unit, it still has to move as slow as the unit itself. So no matter what you cannot jump away from terinators to slingshot the original unit itself or another unit but must walk away from the unit.
ReplyDelete