Feast of Blades '13

Thursday, October 21, 2010

Feel No Pain Debate: Are Dark Eldar Screwed?

(As a response to people who keep commenting on this, I see this misunderstanding quite a bit, I do not understand why people think this also, hence my article on how silly it would be if AP3-6 weapons bypassed FNP, I used DE as an example of how stupid it would be but orks, nids, etc would all also be screwed, thanks guys/gals)

So back in August, in my old group LVL, during a campaign event we had a rules argument over Feel No Pain. First here is the FNP Rule quoted from the BRB....

"Some warriors are so blood frenzied that they can ignore injuries that would incapacitate even a battle-hardened-Space Marine. If a model with this suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3 take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final wound). On a 4, 5, or 6 the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting. This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death (By having a high enough strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior). Neither can it be used against wounds from an AP1 or AP2 weapons, power weapons, and any other wound against which no armor saves can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)"

-Warhammer 40,000 5th Edition Rulebook, Games Workshop

Also here is the Instant death rule for clarification...

"Even though a creature may have multiple Wounds, there are plenty if weapons in the 41st Millenium that are powerful enough to kill it instantly. If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that a strength value of double its toughness value or greater it is killed outright and removed as a casualty. It can be imagined that the creature has been vapourised, burned to a pile of ash, blasted limb from limb..."

-Warhammer 40,000 5th Edition Rulebook, Games Workshop

Both of those are direct quotes from the BRB, the 2nd half of Instant death is an example and unimportant to this debate....

Ok so here is the issue we had. We got into an argument over whether or not a weapon that has an AP better than a models armor allows a FNP save (Example would a Space Marine biker get a FNP save from a strength 7 AP3 wound). IT was under my opinion and more than half of the group that a Space Marine biker would get a FNP save even if it was wounded by an AP3 weapon. The people that disagreed with us believed that because the FNP rule says "which no armor saves can ever be taken" argued that a Space Marine biker with power armor could "Never get a save" against an AP3 weapon so therefore would not get a FNP save. Now my side would argue that the rule clearly states that a "weapon that never would allow an armor save" as well as the fact it gives specific examples of such weapons like power weapons and power fists that you can not possibly get an armor save from. A space marine biker with power armor would get saves sometimes against weapons therefore it an AP3 weapon would not be considered to be under that rule specification. The only two values it says would bypass FNP were AP1 and AP2 weapons such as plasma guns and melta guns. You would belive if GW intended to not give FNP to weapons that penetrated armor it would have listed that exception in this part of the rule. They also argued that these AP higher than 2 weapons would cause instant death which is just plain silly because Instant death clearly states nothing of the sort.

GW never FAQ'd any of this, you would believe they would have...I double checked. Here is the FAQ's link if you wish to check yourself


Now the reason I am bringing this old arguement up because of the New DE rule giving them FNP when they get Pain tokens. The problem is that these models generally have low armor save around a 4+ or 5+ save (I am unsure of which in the new dex they get, so pardon my ignorance on that point). If these units were to gain FNP they would almost never get to take a FNP save because of an AP5 or 4 weapon. this is just plain silly as no one would ever want FNP in this case. I know some tournaments have allowed AP3 and greater weapons to bypass FNP in the past. Is DE doomed to a worthless Special rule exsistance.......?

Ok so my question to you all is what is your oppinion on my dissadents arguement? Should a model get a FNP save from an AP3,4,5 or 6 weapon if its armor save is ignored by that weapon? Now I don't want any tournament specific FAQ's to be quoted here (DILIGAF about the Adepticon FAQ, leave it out of this, I don't like it) . Based off the BRB, codices, and GW FAQ's how should this rule be enterpritted. So have at it internet!

more on this in the future.....


  1. Yes they get FNP check your quote again:
    "any other wound against which no armor saves can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, dreadnought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)"

    First it says "ever be taken" if you have a 2+ save against an ap3 weapon do you get a save? Of course. Look at the examples they give all are things that never allow a save.
    BTW your example for the marines is bogus since the str 8 (x2T) of the battlecannon would negate the FnP.
    Look at it this way does an Ork Warboss get if from the BC, yes, because it is not x2 his T.

  2. Yeah, your friends are wrong. FNP only doesn't work against AP1,2 and works fine against AP3,4,5,6 even if it beats the armor save.

    Now the fact that eldar are t3 and suffer instant death on S6 weapons does matter and makes FNP not as great as if it were on a marine...so autocannons are going to ignore it.

  3. @Matt I ment for the example to be a space marine biker, I left out the bike part. thanks for the fix

  4. The example with a space marine biker would still be instant killed by the battle cannon, as instant death is worked out against base toughness. The bikers +1 makes him harder to wound for small weapons, but just as susceptible to battle cannon fire.

  5. There is no need for a FAQ as the rule as written is clear. The Biker would not get a FNP from a Krak missile since it is double his base tougness, but could get a FNP from a Strength 7, AP 3 weapon.

  6. Ill change the bad example guys thanks

  7. If FnP was worked out based on the AP ignoring YOUR armour, then Orks would never be able to use FnP against weapons we take for granted as allowing FnP. Think of the poor Orks! :p

  8. How can people misunderstand "never be taken" into "sometimes can never be taken"? It continues to weird me out.

    And, as several people noted already, FNP works just fine for Orks, Tyranids, and Plaguebearers- and the latter don't even HAVE an armor save, so by the alternate interpretation one would have to assume that the rule would simply not function for them.

  9. The fact that there was any confusion on this in the first place makes me want to bite a chunk out of my monitor......

    *crunch tinkle , Fzzzzt , THUD, twitch jerk twitch twitch