Hey all, I know everyone is out using the limited points and rules we have now to try and get ahead of the chaos curve but lets step back and think a moment. We all know some of the basics in the army now and have some actual points costs.
This book allows a crazy ammount of customization which is pretty cool. Yet we see a general overcosting of a decent daemon prince and the rise of the extremely cheap Mastery level 3 sorcerer at 110 points. Whether you go with Nurgle or Slaanesh is personl taste (one of each for me please). We also see some changeups in the costing we thought we knew of cultists which is fine. Yet the ammunt of customisation is pretty cool. But I am down on the fact Dark Apostles are not 1-3 elite per choice and are instead HQ's.....but hey it wasnt in the real codex and all the hype we did get will probably be not true and met with disapointment. But we do have access to some pretty cool knew toys
BTW some of the new models such as the apostle, helldrake, and DV chaos are all fairly cool looking but seriously who the hell got drunk and melted the mutilators face? The daemon engines also look fairly uncool. Why not make them like the extremely awesome forgeworld daemon engine that thing is boss....but meh what can you do? So I have a mixed stance on the new models
BTW THESE are still way better than the GW Oblits
Anyway on to the main discussion....the curious case on whether or not to go and buy three forge fiends or to leave them on the shelves. Up front who does not want a daemon engine with a 5++, it will not die, 3 HP's and EIGHT S8 Ap4 shots? Looks good on paper right?
Well looks like a great target to me. The high presense of space wolves with long fang missile launcher packs, as well as missiles and other anti light armor weapons still hanging around makes me think twice on these guys. Are they really that much better than a psyfleman dread? And it is still a vehicle....
It is BS3 so chances are only half of those shots will hit which is the same ammount a normal psyfleman dread. Since it is AP4 it will not kill marines all that well. Sure 3-5 wounds is probable but is the investment worth 2 dead power armored models really worth the investment. Also, unless I am mistaken and correct me if I am wrong, we do not know the points cost. A defiler is suppose to be almost 200 points and what will stop this from being the same for a high priority target that can die in one shot?
Yet it still is statistically better than a psyfleman...but not a venerable one which is more equivilent in probable cost. Yes it can heal hull points and yes it can boost itself one turn to reroll wounds and armor pens (a very nice ability) but how can we keep it alive for more than two turns and is it really better than a healing vindicator who now suffers less from weapon destroyed nerfs via healing and random allocation if it takes a twin linked bolter and/or havoc launcher? Vindicators are also probably much cheaper and AV 13, something hard to kill when plasma is way more common than melta. Also with flak missile launcher havoc marines why not those guys? Defilers also have more hull points so why not them? Now 70 point oblits seem more survivable as well....so what to do?
Personally I lean towards two vindicators and a squad of oblits until I see forge fiends working. Also as a side note I am taking a couple blobs of cultists but what troops do you see working. I am a man of balanced lists so I will mix it up a bit....
So what are your thoughts? Will these guys be the new psyflman or will they just look good on paper and flop in the real tournament scene? I have my chaos army ready and am about to pre order the book from my FLGS (support your FLGS btw and preorder through them and not through GW itself! You are more likely to get it on the date!)
more on this later....
Commentary on 40k, fantasy, tactics, Army Lists, Missions, and much more...in a run on sentence based flow of thought
Feast of Blades '13
Like the Necrons before them, I think the CSM army will have to be built around synergies and target saturation.
ReplyDeleteIf those things are the only targets for the Long Fangs to shoot at...yeah, they're goners.
On the other hand, if there are other 'hard' targets jumping at them giving them bad choices, well, then things loosen up a little.
One thing I don't have a good handle on is how the FOC will shake out. Perhaps you've seen things I haven't...very likely considering my spotty net-surfing time...but are all the things you mention definitely in HVY? Are there Elites or Fasts (Dragons with Templates?) that can push target saturation?
As for troops...a lot depends on what the 'supporting cast' can bring to the table. Typhus with a million zombies sounds hilarious. If there's some way to get Fearless or even Stubborn on cultist blobs, I still think they're the way to go. But then again, giant herds of plain-jane CSM with Boltguns blazing might be pretty intimidating too!
It also sounds like the points-cost for the Cult troops, and the ability to make them Troops, will lead to a lot of fun and diverse armies. Berserkers in particularly sound like quite a bargain (though delivering these assault meanies is still a challenge...no more rhino rush for them!).
Like you I'm hooked on the cheap Sorceror, but I'm also psyched about Ahriman. In the not-quite-completely-guesswork phase we're in now, I'm leaning towards Typhus with a ton of zombies, Ahriman, a couple flaming dragons, and some shooty daemon engines. Any extra points will likely be vanilla CSM to boost up the horde aspect.
My back will hurt after a weekend-long tournament, and I'll go blind painting it all, but what the hell! :)
As for FOc swaps cult units go with hq's with their mark and chosen are unlocked as troops by Abaddon. As for actual FOC slots for these check the GW preorder page they get listed under what slot they are but in general I classify all of these units together as what support units I would take
ReplyDeletePersonally Arhiman isnt that appealing to me. The Tzeentch lore is the least effective in my oppinion (all direct damage compared to slaanesh and nurgle which are mostly buffs and debuffs which is what makes divination appealing to me) Since he only can take 4 rolls on biomancy, pyromancy and telekenesis and not divination I am not seeing him being that useful in my style of play since I like buffs and debuffs. Which is why I plan on taking a pair of sorcerers initially with one nurgle one slaanesh and then start to lean towards whichever one I like the most
ReplyDeletebtw helldrake is fast and the forgefiend/mauler fiend are both heavy
ReplyDeleteWhen I first was penciling together an army list I put the Dragon in as an anti-air, but I'm not sure how much anti-air I need in the average 1500 point army. I was going to dust off my defiler, if not paint a new more optimally armed defiler as my HS choice but the Forgefiend has some appeal.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all you walk on so this saves you from a round or two of shooting, 8 shots should hit a flyer once, but 8 shots directed at the right target might pay off in a single round if Forgefiends are 130 ish points.
I wanted a more mobile army, but the best all around HS choice may once again finally be the Havocs. I'm not sure if the way to go is cheap, or to see what Marks/Icons are available. I mean fearless or FNP Havocs might be interesting. I'm also not sure how many Flakk Missile Launchers to run, 2, 3, 4?
The Dragon with the super flamer seems like it might be the way to go, BS 3 means nothing to template weapons.
yeah the problem with a defiler is the price if not I want to use mine. I am worried the fiend will be equivelent. Yet you are right on the dragon and FA in chaos always seems to have an open slot
ReplyDeleteI don't have Chaos now, but I have always entertained the idea of starting a Thousands sons army.
ReplyDeleteMy idea is Ahriman, 2 squads of TKSons walking, 1 or 2 squads of Cultists to act as meatshield, 1 terminator squad to help resolve CC, and 3 forgefiends for taking down tanks, dreads, and MCs.
I'm hoping the forgefiends will work in this situation.